I mean, the argument for why you should support Israel over Hamas in my view, is simple:
Hamas is an ISIS-like third-wordlist terrorist organization whose goal is to kill or expel the Jewish population of Israel. They have said this many times.
Israel, by contrast, is a developed democracy with a free press where Arabs have rights. Arabs prefer to live in Israel rather than in a Palestinian state. They removed a brain tumor of the head of Hamas, saving his life. They warned large areas of Gaza to evacuate before attacking them, even at cost to their own troops. Israel has a free economy and a booming tech sector. Israel is a big power in cybersecurity and missile defense, and cooperates with the US on this quite a bit. Major US tech companies are invested in Israel. One eighth of Nvidia’s workforce is there.
There really is no comparison between the two in terms of what kind of society they are trying to create and how much they advance civilization. There also is no comparison in how much each side serves American interests.
That doesn’t mean that everything Israel does is right. Indeed they shut down everything coming into Gaza right after October 7 (because of emotional reasons, an understandable if bad emotional response, not logical reasons), but then after two weeks or so allowed in humanitarian aid again. They hit the WCK people, and then apologized and investigated things. Sure, they make mistakes. Again it's totally legitimate to criticize this or that Israeli action. Just as it's totally legitimate to criticize many of the things the Allies did in WWII or that the Coalition did in fighting ISIS.
Hamas is an extremely evil terrorist organization, on par with the Nazis and ISIS in how evil it is, and needs to be removed from power in Gaza. It has in very clear terms said that its goal is to kill and expel the Jews from Israel, to commit a Second Holocaust. Again this doesn't mean that Israel doesn't make mistakes, just as the coalition make mistakes against ISIS and the Allies made mistakes against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.
A ceasefire now just means more destructive wars later. Less deterrence against Hezbollah as well, so it would put people in Southern Lebanon at risk.
"It has in very clear terms said that its goal is to kill and expel the Jews from Israel, to commit a Second Holocaust."
--- And yet Jews move from safe, prosperous countries where they are doing very well to live in the most dangerous place on earth for them. Make it make sense.
Israel is not the most dangerous place on earth for Jews. Hamas has zero chance of ever achieving its goal. Fortunately Hamas is weak. Anyway, Hamas is evil and Israel is right to crush Hamas.
ISIS said in very clear terms that its goal is to create a global Islamic caliphate and kill all non-Muslims. The US is justified in crushing ISIS. Same deal here.
Death toll pretty low, I'd still be more worried about dying in a car accident, COVID, cancer, diseases, etc. Israel has a high life expectancy. Probably more Jews die prematurely in the US.
Death toll may be low in comparison to the attempts at killing but it's a fearful way to live. Jews need to stay in the safe, prosperous countries they were born in and forget about aliya.
Somehow, the world is divided in such a way that the people who hate Jews and Israel are always the ones with the worst opinions on many other things. I don't know if any advocate has thought to make this argument, and it's not a classic advocacy argument, and maybe it even stirs up antagonism, but it's the truth.
The particular community in question often uses the most obscure information that they can find as a way of obscuring the truth. It's a consistent debate tactic that is used from that culture in that community. Obscuring the truth is also known as lying. I think it's mentioned repeatedly in the Bible from the Blessed words of Jesus Christ.
The right response to Israel bombing and killing aid workers from the WCK is that it must have been a mistake. Even if you are very cynical (and I’m not; the people running the IDF are very leftist and are pushing for a terrible hostage deal, but that’s a separate topic), Israel has no incentive to do so. Indeed Israel apologized and Netanyahu called it a “tragic incident”. The WCK started operating again in Gaza within a month. Israel dismissed 2 officers over the affair: https://apnews.com/article/israel-world-central-kitchen-gaza-aid-workers-69b6176362dafc8e4e2754b2342faa1d .
They've been killing aid workers and every kind of innocent civilian since before the official founding of their state. it's a quintessentially Zionist activity. You must be new to the history of Zionism.
Do you have any evidence that Israel targeted these WCK workers as a matter of policy?
“The history of Zionism” and the actions of Zionist groups in the 1940s (!) are really not good evidence. You might as well say that if the US killing an aid worker must not be a mistake because we firebombed Dresden in the 1940s, and that killing civilians is a quintessential American activity. We have killed far more than Israel has.
To be fair though, a few of these are legitimate responses. For example "What would you have them do instead?" and "whataboutism" are always legitimate responses to accusations of misconduct.
Frankly, all of these are legitimate responses. Note how Diane hasn't actually refuted any of the arguments she's complaining about. In fact, the reason she's complaining about them is that she can't refute them.
Note that the only counter argument she presents is:
> Tell the propagandists “[Logical argument] does not work on me, it only solidifies my position against Israel.”
I think some of them, like accusing the speaker of supporting Hamas for just criticizing some Israeli action, are not good arguments. Neither is saying that the situation in Gaza is the fault of Palestinian civilians. Palestinian civilians have extremist views because of how much propaganda and other awful things there are in their society, but that doesn't make them collectively responsible for Hamas' actions. For the civilians who infiltrated on 10/7 it's their fault. But the average Palestinian should not be blamed for Hamas' actions, even though he is brainwashed to agree with them. There's a good reason Israel tries not to kill the Palestinian civilians if it can help it.
I think that not trusting the numbers from the Gaza Ministry of Health is good though, you should not do that because that is Hamas propaganda, and has proven to be tons of times (e.g. the fake news about the 500 dead in the IDF strike on the hospital, reported by NYT and BBC).
Just speaking on the ashkenazi IQ part, if I recall the study that was done on it was a little skewed. They did the study using kids who went to a private school vs a public school and the group sizes was something like 20-50 vs several hundred to a thousand at the public side. Not to say they're not intelligent but the tests could be a little misleading
I mean, the argument for why you should support Israel over Hamas in my view, is simple:
Hamas is an ISIS-like third-wordlist terrorist organization whose goal is to kill or expel the Jewish population of Israel. They have said this many times.
Israel, by contrast, is a developed democracy with a free press where Arabs have rights. Arabs prefer to live in Israel rather than in a Palestinian state. They removed a brain tumor of the head of Hamas, saving his life. They warned large areas of Gaza to evacuate before attacking them, even at cost to their own troops. Israel has a free economy and a booming tech sector. Israel is a big power in cybersecurity and missile defense, and cooperates with the US on this quite a bit. Major US tech companies are invested in Israel. One eighth of Nvidia’s workforce is there.
There really is no comparison between the two in terms of what kind of society they are trying to create and how much they advance civilization. There also is no comparison in how much each side serves American interests.
That doesn’t mean that everything Israel does is right. Indeed they shut down everything coming into Gaza right after October 7 (because of emotional reasons, an understandable if bad emotional response, not logical reasons), but then after two weeks or so allowed in humanitarian aid again. They hit the WCK people, and then apologized and investigated things. Sure, they make mistakes. Again it's totally legitimate to criticize this or that Israeli action. Just as it's totally legitimate to criticize many of the things the Allies did in WWII or that the Coalition did in fighting ISIS.
Hamas is an extremely evil terrorist organization, on par with the Nazis and ISIS in how evil it is, and needs to be removed from power in Gaza. It has in very clear terms said that its goal is to kill and expel the Jews from Israel, to commit a Second Holocaust. Again this doesn't mean that Israel doesn't make mistakes, just as the coalition make mistakes against ISIS and the Allies made mistakes against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.
A ceasefire now just means more destructive wars later. Less deterrence against Hezbollah as well, so it would put people in Southern Lebanon at risk.
"It has in very clear terms said that its goal is to kill and expel the Jews from Israel, to commit a Second Holocaust."
--- And yet Jews move from safe, prosperous countries where they are doing very well to live in the most dangerous place on earth for them. Make it make sense.
Israel is not the most dangerous place on earth for Jews. Hamas has zero chance of ever achieving its goal. Fortunately Hamas is weak. Anyway, Hamas is evil and Israel is right to crush Hamas.
ISIS said in very clear terms that its goal is to create a global Islamic caliphate and kill all non-Muslims. The US is justified in crushing ISIS. Same deal here.
Israel is not the most dangerous place for Jews? There were regular bombings going off in public places for decades.
Death toll pretty low, I'd still be more worried about dying in a car accident, COVID, cancer, diseases, etc. Israel has a high life expectancy. Probably more Jews die prematurely in the US.
Death toll may be low in comparison to the attempts at killing but it's a fearful way to live. Jews need to stay in the safe, prosperous countries they were born in and forget about aliya.
People can do whatever they want.
I have no plans to make aliyah. I have visited Israel before and it’s great. While there I’m more worried about car accidents than terrorists.
Somehow, the world is divided in such a way that the people who hate Jews and Israel are always the ones with the worst opinions on many other things. I don't know if any advocate has thought to make this argument, and it's not a classic advocacy argument, and maybe it even stirs up antagonism, but it's the truth.
The particular community in question often uses the most obscure information that they can find as a way of obscuring the truth. It's a consistent debate tactic that is used from that culture in that community. Obscuring the truth is also known as lying. I think it's mentioned repeatedly in the Bible from the Blessed words of Jesus Christ.
lol
As well as condemned by Moses and the Prophets ...
The right response to Israel bombing and killing aid workers from the WCK is that it must have been a mistake. Even if you are very cynical (and I’m not; the people running the IDF are very leftist and are pushing for a terrible hostage deal, but that’s a separate topic), Israel has no incentive to do so. Indeed Israel apologized and Netanyahu called it a “tragic incident”. The WCK started operating again in Gaza within a month. Israel dismissed 2 officers over the affair: https://apnews.com/article/israel-world-central-kitchen-gaza-aid-workers-69b6176362dafc8e4e2754b2342faa1d .
See also here: https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4569357-netanyahu-responsibility-strik-world-central-kitchen/ and here https://www.axios.com/2024/04/05/israel-strike-wck-cause-investigation-gaza . Every army makes mistakes in wars. The IDF made a mistake, investigated what went wrong, apologized, and disciplined people.
That being said I agree that many of these arguments that you mention are not great arguments.
They've been killing aid workers and every kind of innocent civilian since before the official founding of their state. it's a quintessentially Zionist activity. You must be new to the history of Zionism.
Do you have any evidence that Israel targeted these WCK workers as a matter of policy?
“The history of Zionism” and the actions of Zionist groups in the 1940s (!) are really not good evidence. You might as well say that if the US killing an aid worker must not be a mistake because we firebombed Dresden in the 1940s, and that killing civilians is a quintessential American activity. We have killed far more than Israel has.
That’s just a ridiculous argument.
Great article.
To be fair though, a few of these are legitimate responses. For example "What would you have them do instead?" and "whataboutism" are always legitimate responses to accusations of misconduct.
Frankly, all of these are legitimate responses. Note how Diane hasn't actually refuted any of the arguments she's complaining about. In fact, the reason she's complaining about them is that she can't refute them.
Note that the only counter argument she presents is:
> Tell the propagandists “[Logical argument] does not work on me, it only solidifies my position against Israel.”
I think some of them, like accusing the speaker of supporting Hamas for just criticizing some Israeli action, are not good arguments. Neither is saying that the situation in Gaza is the fault of Palestinian civilians. Palestinian civilians have extremist views because of how much propaganda and other awful things there are in their society, but that doesn't make them collectively responsible for Hamas' actions. For the civilians who infiltrated on 10/7 it's their fault. But the average Palestinian should not be blamed for Hamas' actions, even though he is brainwashed to agree with them. There's a good reason Israel tries not to kill the Palestinian civilians if it can help it.
I think that not trusting the numbers from the Gaza Ministry of Health is good though, you should not do that because that is Hamas propaganda, and has proven to be tons of times (e.g. the fake news about the 500 dead in the IDF strike on the hospital, reported by NYT and BBC).
Just speaking on the ashkenazi IQ part, if I recall the study that was done on it was a little skewed. They did the study using kids who went to a private school vs a public school and the group sizes was something like 20-50 vs several hundred to a thousand at the public side. Not to say they're not intelligent but the tests could be a little misleading
Diane often seems myopically over-focused on IQ, especially of groups.
My smoldering crush on Diane Yap continues to grow with each post.